76 Dodge 700

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Re: 76 Dodge 700

Post by 70chall440 on Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:54 pm

Repairs continue

[img][/img]

[img][/img]

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Re: 76 Dodge 700

Post by 70chall440 on Sat Oct 03, 2015 12:42 am

Getting it done slowly.

[img][/img]

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Re: 76 Dodge 700

Post by 73rr on Sat Oct 17, 2015 12:25 pm

It is a cool truck, good to hear that you decided to do some fixin' instead of selling it. In similar fashion I recently bought a '77 D300 with, I think, the worst hacked up wiring I have ever seen....and the truck was owned by a commercial electrician...so I certainly appreciate your challenges.

BTW, how is the '52 doing?
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Re: 76 Dodge 700

Post by 70chall440 on Sat Oct 17, 2015 2:44 pm

Yea it is a cool truck and I could not bring myself to scrap it to push it down the line as the next guy most likely would have done just that. There are some unique challenges but overall not terrible. The worst part is climbing in and out of the engine compartment or onto the hood; got some altitude there.

I should have this thing wrapped up this weekend at least for now. I had to put a new MC in it which was a much larger problem than I would have suspected; turns out they used a "big truck" MC which was used on school buses but with some "small" changes like line/fitting size. I chased an adapter for 2 days as I came to find out that when it comes to brake fittings, they are listed by thread size and/or line size, so you are looking for one thing when in fact it sold as something else (i.e. a 1/2-20 fitting is commonly advertised as a 5/16 because that is the ID). Ended up finding one for $2 at AutoZone after ordering one online for $23 (didn't want to wait).

the 52 is alive and well; don't drive it much and it has a right front flat tire I need to attend to. Starts right up and runs great.

Your 77 D300 shares a lot with my truck and others of the era, but there are some unique issues (there were/are for me at least). post some pictures.

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Re: 76 Dodge 700

Post by 70chall440 on Sat Oct 17, 2015 11:12 pm

I am about done with it, not sure if the cowl is sealed or not but I have done what I can. Got the wiring sorted out; it was pretty obvious whoever tried to put the gauges in didn't read the instructions and was really fond of line splices.

[img][/img]

[img][/img]

[img][/img]

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Re: 76 Dodge 700

Post by 70chall440 on Sat Oct 17, 2015 11:31 pm

Here are some more pics

[img][/img]

[img][/img]

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Re: 76 Dodge 700

Post by 70chall440 on Mon Oct 19, 2015 8:14 pm

So, I have the truck almost finished and I tried to test drive it, unfortunately I am having an issue with the new MC and the brakes. The front are not releasing when you come off the brakes; they do release slowly but not like normal. I shortened the rod to see if that helps, but I haven't tried it yet.

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Re: 76 Dodge 700

Post by rich on Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:47 am

have you changed your proportioning valve?

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Re: 76 Dodge 700

Post by 70chall440 on Tue Oct 20, 2015 10:47 am

I don't know that one is on the vehicle; I need to crawl under it and look; but the short answer is "no" I haven't.

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Re: 76 Dodge 700

Post by 70chall440 on Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:21 am

I am thinking that the MC is producing too much pressure to the front brakes. I am thinking of installing a proportioning valve.

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Re: 76 Dodge 700

Post by 70chall440 on Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:05 pm

I have decided to put a proportioning valve into the front line and see if I can dial it back.

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Re: 76 Dodge 700

Post by 70chall440 on Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:28 pm

The proportioning valve did not work; after a lot of investigation I have deduced that the booster is suspect. Every issue I have comes up pointing to the booster. My research shows that the booster is a bendix single diaphragm PN 2512065 which crosses over to a cardone 51-8000. Problem is that every where I look it shows this booster only used on 60's era GM trucks so I am a little reluctant to drop $200 on one (they are plentiful). I cannot find a kit to rebuild the one I have (yet). I really need to find a brake guy; talked to one guy yesterday but he was very focused on selling me a new MC. After some careful thought and consultation, I am very sure that my hyrdovac booster (one of them) is the culprit. I need to do a couple of tests and try and bleed the brakes as well as add some non-petroleum oil to the boosters and see what happens. The tests will tell me if it is indeed the booster.

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Re: 76 Dodge 700

Post by 70chall440 on Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:03 pm

Now I am at a bit of a loss; I disconnected the boosters (disconnected the vacuum line) and tried the truck; got the same issue with the brakes locking up. This leads me to the conclusion that perhaps the one guy I talked to is correct, that the MC is responsible for this condition although I find it hard to understand why this would be. I still need to bleed the system and perhaps this will yield some results as I am sure the fluid is contaminated with water and most likely has some air in it.

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Re: 76 Dodge 700

Post by rich on Sun Nov 01, 2015 9:25 am

any luck?

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Re: 76 Dodge 700

Post by 70chall440 on Sun Nov 01, 2015 1:05 pm

none so far; everything I have tried has the same result, the brakes are seizing up if any pressure it applied to the system. I am having a hard time getting my head around it being the MC but that is about all I am left with. The guy in MA (Alretta Trucks) wants $400 for a new MC that he says is correct for the vehicle. I already paid $200 for the MC that is in it, however if it doesn't work it is moot. I just want to know 100% (or as close as possible) that it is the MC before I spend the $$, because if I spend $400 and then find out it wasn't I am going to be a bit upset (although there isn't much I could/would do about it).

I am going to attempt to bleed the brakes today; not a small undertaking. Each wheel has 2 cylinders plus to brake boosters (10 bleed valves in all). fortunately I do have a power bleeder, however I have to see if it will work on this MC. Then there is the matter of getting the bleeder valves open, if I brake one off the world just got far worse..

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Re: 76 Dodge 700

Post by 70chall440 on Sun Nov 01, 2015 4:14 pm

well as with most things in life, there is good news and bad news; out of the 10 bleeder valves; 7 of them open, however 3 of the four in the front will not budge and of course immediately rounded off despite my slow approach. So now I am not sure what to do, I am hesitant to put any heat/flame on them as I am quite sure I would have a raging fire rapidly. Cannot really get a vise grip on them due to their location and the fact I am pretty sure they will just round off even more. I had soaked them penetrating oil some time ago which didn't seem to help too much. I really do not want to pull the wheels off (huge) and I have a feeling the wheel cylinders are like the MC, made of ground unicorn horn (i.e. expensive and hard to get). At this very moment I want to drag it into the field and set it on fire or sell it for parts...

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Re: 76 Dodge 700

Post by 70chall440 on Sun Nov 01, 2015 11:31 pm

Todays update - I somewhat bled the brakes (7 of the 10 bleeder valves); definitely got some contamination out of the system; unfortunately the front bleeder valves were/are stuck and subsequently I could not truly bleed them. What I did do is crack the lines and tried to bleed as much as I could that way; the result was no change. After staring at it awhile I decided that I needed to pull the MC and take it apart to see what was different from the old one to the new one that supposedly is incorrect. I got the new one out and disassembled it. It is identical to the old one with one exception; there is a thrust washer on the end (where the push rod goes in); this measured out at .175" whereas the one in the new MC measured out at .185". Regardless, I disassembled the new MC and removed the seals and put them onto the internals from the old MC, then reinstalled everything into the new MC housing. After bleeding the MC I tried it again; still no joy however I concentrated on what the truck is doing and not doing; here is the synopsis;

1. with the parking brake on, if you put it into gear the truck seems free to move forward or backward.
2. once you touch the brakes; it "appears" the front is locking up
3. under idle while in gear (either direction) with your foot off the brake, you can feel the truck inching in whatever direction you have the trans in
4. if you are backing up with the truck essentially dragging on the brakes and put it into drive with your foot off the brake, the truck with jump forward, if you touch the brakes then they grab immediately and lock up
5. it "seems" that if you pump the brakes, they want to release a little

what I am thinking now is that something in the front brakes in dragging, not releasing, etc. This of course will mean I have to take the front tires off and get the drums off; not an easy thing to do. I do not think it is the MC as the guy in MA told me as I just cannot see how it could be. The only other thing I think it might be is the distribution valve located on the frame but seeing that everything is getting fluid I am not convinced. I am "thinking" that if I take the drums off, I should be able to see the brake shoes pushing out and retracting (the retracting part is what isn't working).

I have given a lot of thought as to why this has happened when they seemed to have worked before I replaced the MC; well my theory is that just prior to moving the truck into the shop, I discovered that the MC was empty due to it leaking into the cab. I think that there wasn't any fluid or barely any in the system and the brakes were barely working. When I replaced the MC and closed the system, it pushed things further than they were used to going and subsequently resulted in the brakes dragging.

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Re: 76 Dodge 700

Post by 70chall440 on Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:03 pm

Well I thought I had an idea (derived from another forum); it was suggested the one or both of the ports on my new MC has a residual pressure valve, so I pulled the lines again but no joy, there isn't anything in the ports so I am back to where I started. I believe I am going to have to pull the wheels and brake drums but it seems that those lug nuts have not been off for some time and are left handed. So I am soaking them in penetrating oil and then will look at trying to break them loose.

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Re: 76 Dodge 700

Post by 70chall440 on Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:27 pm

I am wondering what options I have here as it seems that these parts are very hard to come by

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Re: 76 Dodge 700

Post by 70chall440 on Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:39 pm

Not sure if no one reads this or no one knows about this vehicle but it is pretty quiet here.

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Re: 76 Dodge 700

Post by 73rr on Thu Nov 05, 2015 2:09 pm

...a couple of random thoughts...
Yes, it could be that something changed after putting fluid in the system and part movement exceeded the 'free' zone previously occupied and now is binding.
If you remove the drum and apply the brakes you will likely push the wheel cylinder pucks out of the bore. You might weld up some sort of frame, even a simple hoop, to hold against the shoes. The force will be substantial.
Brake fluid has an auto-ignition temp of 500-1000 degrees depending on the test method, however, I could not find any test using open flame, so indeed you could start a (controlled) fire if you put a Mapp torch to the bleeder. You will also likely damage any rubber in the wheel cylinder.

How about removing the wheel cylinder and working on the bleeder on the bench?
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Re: 76 Dodge 700

Post by 70chall440 on Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:26 pm

Thanks for the information. I thought about the issue of the cylinder pushing out too far without a drum and was thinking of making some type of containment system.

I already tried the MAP gas technique but no joy. Not sure if I damaged the rubber or not as I haven't gotten it apart but it isn't leaking so I am not sure if it is damaged but stuck or if it isn't damaged. Either way, I need to get the wheels and drums off to see what is happening. I have to order a torque multiplier tool to help getting the lug nuts off. Once I get that I will then see what is happening. The one bleeder I could move (pass side lower) didn't have any fluid so there is that as well.

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Re: 76 Dodge 700

Post by 70chall440 on Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:08 pm

So, I did some automotive archeology tonight on the truck. I pulled the massive front tire off, then got the hub and drum off. I couldn't find anything outwardly wrong although it was pretty dirty and the axle bearings are due for re-lub. I could not spin the hub by hand, this could be a result of the massive amount of surface contact area, could be also be in part to the bearings being a little dry. I did try pushing on the brakes and nothing happened; I didn't lean on them hard because I didn't want the wheel cylinders to pop out but I just wanted to see if anything would happen, it didn't. The brakes were tight on the hubs but not excessively so. Doesn't look like the cylinders were/are leaking but to be honest, I am not sure if they are working all; however when I have tried to move the truck it seems that they are.

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Re: 76 Dodge 700

Post by 70chall440 on Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:20 pm

An interesting side note is that the manual I have which goes to 75 shows these same brakes except pointing front/back whereas these are up and down (top and bottom if you prefer). Looking at them closely, I would say the back plate has been off at least on the drivers side (haven't checked the pass side yet). So either they made a change in 76, omitted this setup in the manual, or someone put them together wrong. I am going with option #1 at this stage as both sides are the same, so if someone did change it up, they did both sides. My manual does should a top/bottom set up for a rear axle, but not a front.

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Re: 76 Dodge 700

Post by 70chall440 on Sun Nov 08, 2015 12:02 am

Today's update: I picked up the new wheel cylinders and commenced to disassembling the left side brakes. Not overly difficult just a little different than what I have seen in the past. Once I got the brakes off, I took off the brake lines and then the wheel cylinders. I discovered that both wheel cylinders on the drivers side were completely jammed with gunk which appears to be a combination of rust, water, dirt and brake fluid. I tried to disassemble them but they are stuck together. What I think is that that the brake line pressure did force them out but then they were stuck there which is why I was having the problems. I cannot say this is "the" problem but is certainly is a "a" problem. Have to wait until next week to get the new wheel seals so I can repack and reassemble the drums and hubs. Tomorrow I will do the right side as I have to build one of the brake lines; it wouldn't come off so I had to cut it. [img][/img]

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Re: 76 Dodge 700

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